Discussion of 'Camping'

Ideas of what could/should be done to make things a bit more interesting?

Skrivet av Rock Lee, 30.11.2019 at 16:40

Excellent. I just want to add my 50 cents about camping. It's true not all clan admit there is something wrong with it. But some sort of people would also argue that rewalling is not illegal and if a rule against alt farming would'nt exist. I believe we all are sure some sort of people would stand for it too.

At the end of the day rules exist to provide us as much as possible fair and balanced game. And I don't think sanctioning canping is going too far.

Since some clans support it and some clans oppose it I suggest to make a thread about it. Let everyone's opinions to be heard. Vote for it. Show the community what modes and admins voted and then make again a final vote.

It's not pure good versus evil case so it's a bit complicated situation. However out community is full of intelligent and sophisticated people and we can pull it off.

Cheers!

There is the other side of the coin which we need to discuss because there is another break in the system. At what point does it become inappropiate for season-leading clans to repeatadely play clans with fresh 1000 seasonal elo and no experience at all? At the end of the season it's more seasonal elo than most competetive clans managed to keep which makes new clans totally abuseable. Therefore I believe we should consider to decrease the seasonal elo clans win if the general elo gap between the clans is too high.

That way competetive clans could not ditch each other and only choose easy prey. At least not at the enf of the season.

Firstly, let me explain how things are working at the moment:

Competitive community on this game is having small number of fully active coalitions which is not enough number to make Elo system fair for everyone if camping of one coalition happens. And it happens, obviously.
One coalition gets some high elo in earlier stage of season which lasts for 3 months. For example, in first 1,5 months. The rest 1,5 months they just stay at the top where they are without playing anyone or barely playing anyone. And no one can reach them. Why?

I will now randomly use names of current active coalitions as example (the ones that have at least 30 cws and which still exist), to demonstrate it better:

So, those 'active' coalitions would be: Peaky Blinders, Illyria, Mortal Kombat, Epic Clan, The Immortals, Ghost Division, Sons of Mars.
7 of them who remain alive and active during whole season.

(NOTE: Following coalitions and numbers are just examples)

Peaky Blinders have 85 games in total in the season. In the first month of the season they reach 1150 Elo and camp that Elo during whole season with only 6 played cws in the last 45 days of season (practically half of the season).

To get that high Elo, Peaky Blinders have 'farmed' that high Elo mostly on wins against Sons of Mars, Ghost Division and Illyria who are now stucked at the bottom of ranking board with about 900 Elo or even less. They have no chance of comeback because PB won't cw them to lose 25 Elo to win just few Elo points, let's say 4.
Also Immortals will avoid to cw them too because they want to play active, but a bit more wise season, willing to play only clans with middle or higher amount of Elo.
SoM, GD and Illyria are now stucked on the bottom and can play only Mortal Kombat or EC to comeback and they have to farm them plenty cws in a row in the best, but not that highly possible, occassions they will achieve it.

In the meantime, Mortal Kombat, Epic clan and Immortals are being around 1050 Elo all. They are active whole season with 120+ cws and since Peaky Blinders don't want to cw them, they can either cw between themselves and keep constantly swapping places between each other or they can try to risk and 'farm' coalitions on the bottom who lost a wish for cwing, but playing just for fun. If they lose, they lose 20+ Elo. If they win, they win about 5 Elo points.
They will probably win several cws in a row against the bottom coalitions, but they're going to lose 1/5 games against them and they will lose the same amount of Elo they have won in the first 5 matches.

So, only smart remaining option for those 3 coalitions with about 1050 Elo is just to keep playing each other and keep swapping the places. Once you lose 15 Elo, another cw you win 11 Elo, once you lose 11 Elo, once you win 15 Elo and so on. In circle.

All of that is happening while Peaky Blinders are staying at the 1150 Elo waiting for season to end and to get a trophy for the 1st place.

---

Competence on atWar is killed just if we let 1 out of 7 active coalitions to camp their Elo.
Trust me, I was on 890 Elo with Peaky Blinders, we had a comeback which happened in this season and maybe will never again happen. And trust me, it was 2x easier job to get from 890 Elo back to 1050 than catching 1st place with those 1050.

AtWar doesn't have 20 fully active coalitions, so several of them will stand out and fight for the first spot, several of them will be in the middle and several of them will be on the bottom.
AtWar has about 6-7-8 active coalitions, depends on season, but no more than that.

Letting anyone to camp for almost half season = death of competitive scene.
Whole season can be summarized as ---> just a bunch of futile attempts from 2-3 coalitions to reach the camping clan.

Remember: Activity is what needs to be encouraged and inactivity is what needs to be stopped.
You can't join football league, win first 10 matches then stop playing till the end or till another team comes close to you.

---

Since, Dave is not being active here, neither I see he is going to be soon and next season is starting in few hours, I can suggest few easier options without coding by which we can solve or at least temporarily stop this problem, in my opinion the biggest one. Maybe the only remaining one now when we solved guideliness for cws.



1. OPTION
Removal of X number of Elo from staff to the coalition which didn't CW for Y number of days.
Ex: Peaky Blinders didn't cw for 10 days in a row during the season, they got 20 Elo removed from their total Elo.
They again didn't cw for another 10 days, they got another 20 Elo removed from their total Elo.



2. OPTION
Let's call the last month (last 30 days of season) - The final stage.
The winning coalition has to play at least 15 cws in the final stage of season. If not, they got their Elo reseted back to default 1000 Elo from season start.

Ex: Peaky Blinders cwed 8 times in last 30 days of season (in The final stage). At the end of the season, they got their Elo reseted back to default 1000 and now Mortal Kombat, who was 2nd placed coalition before Peaky Blinder's Elo reset is coming up to the 1st place and winning the season. Same goes for 3rd placed coalition which is jumping on 2nd place and 4th placed coalition which is jumping on 3rd place



3. OPTION

If Clovis can code and implement this. Last 3 days of season, top 5 positioned active clans (the ones with more than 30 games and which are alive) are going to the Final stage in new additional rankings bracket made only with those 5 coalitions.
1st positioned coalition has 5 points in these new extra rankings
2nd positioned coalition has 3 points.
3rd positioned coalition has 1 point.
4th and 5th coalition has 0 points.

Only those 5 coalitions can compete in the Final 3days stage of season, in that new extra rankings. Elo will be replaced by points in last 3 days for those 5 coalitions.
1 win = 1 point, 1 loss = minus 1 point

At start, 1st positioned coalition has advanatge of 5 points over 4th and 5th. 4 from 3rd, 2 from 2nd. The coalition with the most number of points won in those last 3 days of season is winning the season.

(I hope I explained well this shit, something like play-offs between top 5 clans.......... I started to lose myself)



4. OPTION

System change which is not possible yet, so I won't discuss it here and now. Maybe sometimes in future about what I have already suggested, implementing the ranking system where win is giving +3 points and loss -2



What you guys think about some of these options / suggestions?

PS. WE NEED TO REMOVE COALITIONS WITH LESS THAN 30 CWS FROM LEADERBOARD OR SET UP X NUMBER OF CWS TO BECOME VISIBLE ON LEADERBOARD

1. Current format is the best one we can have without some kind of league. It is fair, not perfect, but working well. Isnt like some players would want to be (give us just to play as more we can, for nothing). It is fair cuz u have to earn elo, which is also easy to lose if u play vs low ranked clans. In past some clans reached 1300+ elo, MK was one of them. Now we won season with 1160 elo, which is bad. Problem was cuz other clans were so bad, to reach even 1100+ qnd.keep it. Many players who are left here doesn't knew what "playing competitive" means in reality. Whole cw scene is in big problems, but I wont talk here about it, no motivation to fight lost war, without real power to deal with it.

2. Money. Pc rewards if u won cw, season and rest. Creating league where we have 3 clans ( every single of them isn't very active) isnt even a option. So many clans would collapse and ruin whole thing.

Motivation to play more cws is really low, except for some random guys who got deleted from map after 5 turns, so they asking for another chance, just to play and maybe reach turn six in next game. For "bored" and players with more experience, 2 good cw days are enough to take and hold first place. Which isnt good too, cuz clan who shows last 3 days of the season and manage to earn fast elo, can win season...

We arent in good position to make changes without new players and rewards.

PB was too bad to win this season and all rest clans which participated. Simple answer. If u were good enough u would've reach 1200 elo, even cwing only 900-1000 clans.

Didnt saw any clan above 1150 whole season except MK. We had 10 cws winning row too.

Fully deserved.

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 30.11.2019 at 18:39

PB was too bad to win this season and all rest clans which participated. Simple answer, if u were good enough u would've reach 1200 elo, even cwing only 900-1000 clans.

...
Let me just post and translate what you've sent me in private message a minute after your comment on this thread. It's absolutely not what you've posted here in public, but the opposite.


Mauzer Panteri: 'correct (pretty fine) post, you said well'
Clovis: /
Clovis: /
Mauzer Panteri: 'it's pretty realistic, but it's not that hard to gain 100 Elo, especially not against Nero and similiar, if you catch them few in a row'
Mauzer Panteri: 'sometimes it could be done some more... but what you've said is true, the Elo is just spinning up and down'

Nothing we can do, no one is obligated or forced to play games. Infact most people are unaware but you have total control over who you play and what settings you use too as you can literally decide not to play if you don't want too. It's just a common sense of decency to not camp during the end of the season because you know another team or individual is in better shape to win but like I said no one is forced to play and they definitely shouldn't be either.

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 30.11.2019 at 18:39

You guys would have been a cake walk for us, I don't blame you for being cowards I probably would have ran and hide too if the Immortals showed up gun blazing. I'd rather have Illyria continue cheating than people who refuse to play out of absolute fear.

I personally believe we need to get rid of the multiple-month seasons altogether. Many competitive games with seasons cap it at max two months, yet ours are four. This season I noticed the camping began roughly a week and a half after the one-month mark hit, so I'm of the impression that if we have shorter seasons (1 month sounds fine tbh), this issue will go away. Not only this, but it will give growing/learning clans the chance to bounce back more easily, as well as driving incentive for all clans as a whole to compete more since they have less time until the end of the season.

If we weren't to do something like this, I believe Croat's first option is the closest to an Elo depreciation system that I think would work.

Skrivet av Garde, 30.11.2019 at 18:58

I personally believe we need to get rid of the multiple-month seasons altogether. Many competitive games with seasons cap it at max two months, yet ours are four. This season I noticed the camping began roughly a week and a half after the one-month mark hit, so I'm of the impression that if we have shorter seasons (1 month sounds fine tbh), this issue will go away. Not only this, but it will give growing/learning clans the chance to bounce back more easily, as well as driving incentive for all clans as a whole to compete more since they have less time until the end of the season.

If we weren't to do something like this, I believe Croat's first option is the closest to an Elo depreciation system that I think would work.

If TLDR my post, just read this one ^

All summarized. Support

Introduce ELO decay to CWs and duels as some people have already suggested. There is no real effective way to deal with "Camping" unless you want to put yourself through the effort of monitoring clans and players.
People can easily find a way to work around the system especially if the competitive community is so small.

I think we need to remake all the competitive scene right now.
We need something new scenario players got new maps (not anymore all good map makers gave up from what I've heard) without something new every season (strat/balance) this game is just boring cw scene is the only thing fun (only nubs and tryharders play duel) we can't make short seasons or rip lowranks they won't be able to play since all elo count.
I think we should remove clan elo and use points instead of elo 3 points for a win 1 for a loss 2 the last month of season it will be more fair and will be a season of who plays the most=more cws and no more camping
It will remove the last day farm of illy and the camping of mk and clans like pb and ec could be first cuz they got a lot of active players.

Just implement the system Croat suggested, +3 per win, -2 per defeat, it's simple, intuitive and efficient.

Please give us some quick changes, we're tired of inertia T_T.

Skrivet av Kaska, 01.12.2019 at 04:14

Just implement the system Croat suggested, +3 per win, -2 per defeat

I've moved the thread about it to Supporter forum. If needed I can please brian or mods to move it back in discussion. But we have firstly to see all possible options and which one gets the most support.

Maybe for this season we will have to use some option without coding and if clovis can prepare the system w+3 l-2 in the meantime until next season, I would be fine with that. I don't know, we gotta see what rest of comp.community thinks

Skrivet av Kaska, 01.12.2019 at 04:14

Just implement the system Croat suggested, +3 per win, -2 per defeat, it's simple, intuitive and efficient.

Please give us some quick changes, we're tired of inertia T_T.

This system with shorter (1-2 month) seasons is the perfect solution.

Everything under 3 months is too short.

You could have it, so that every day, elo goes back to 1000 by 0.1%

Non competitive players want to win season only by playing more cws then the other clans.

Lol.

Think twice before u make that naive kind of wishes. What if Victory and Dominicano heard about it and make their clans... Who could stop them? D

Or bb elo if some clan doesnt play few days... What if random clan reach 1300 elo in some period and then other soy "competitive groups" decline to cw them, on x days period so that leading coalition lost points because all ignored their calls on war clan.

Watch things from more angles.

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 01.12.2019 at 16:58

Non competitive players want to win season only by playing more cws then the other clans.

Lol.

You've literally called out whole active part of competitive scene 'non-competitive' because you won a season with 85 games, and didnt cw for 45 last days.
Said in other words, you suddenly publically support Elo camp in front of activity. Okay, pretty 'objective' and not being hypocrite.

Let's remind you now on your own thoughts few months ago about similiar situation according on Illyria's season winning with small number of games and not competing for more than half of season (like MK did this season):

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 30.08.2018 at 08:53

Where your clan was 85 days of this season? We have more cws played, last 9 cw we all win, including cw vs Illy.

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 30.08.2018 at 08:53

we would have 10 gold trophies, but we want only deserved trophies. Not "wins at any cost".

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 30.08.2018 at 06:05

Its about Illy and their "win elo or save elo at any cost" cases.
Clan with 2 mods showing that kind of behavior.

Last season you were literally a Croat from this season. A 'non-competitive' player whose clan has the most number of games during whole season and had no chance to reach someone who farmed Elo in early or late stages and wasnt competing for more than a half of season in total.

Come on, please, start being rational, objective and fair, stop being a hypocrite and turning yourself as the wind blows. If Illyria was MK this season, I'm sure you would stand the opinion how camping needs to be removed.

From now on, we can either all make a deal on implementing changes, either we can just give up in first 20 days of season when some coalition reaches higher Elo and stops playing.
Be sure Peaky Blinders are not wishing to encourage the activity and competitiveness anymore. This season took us enough time and endeavor to do it anymore again.
So, I'm repeating, it's either on you to agree on changes which would be done by agreement of whole competitive community, either we can lock up the season after first 20 days when the first clan stands out with some higher won Elo. Simple story.

From now on, I am open for both solutions, I won't care anymore. It's on us to choose, let's see what we will all together decide.

Mauzer after getting first place

Skrivet av Chess, 30.11.2019 at 21:01

Introduce ELO decay to CWs and duels as some people have already suggested. There is no real effective way to deal with "Camping" unless you want to put yourself through the effort of monitoring clans and players.
People can easily find a way to work around the system especially if the competitive community is so small.

I thought about the same thing. If the coalition hasn't played at least 3 games in the last 5 days (for example), make them lose ELO based on a percentage of their current ELO or a fixed value.

• Relative value : A clan has 1200 ELO after 30 days of playing. They go inactive, and lose 1% of their relative value daily toward the starting 1000 ELO.
  Let's say they don't play for 15 days, their ELO would've decayed by 28. The formula being: [(Current Elo - Standard value) * (100% - Decay% ^ Days not played)]
  The decay value seems reasonable to me, maybe up it to 1.5%, but all of the parameters are modifiable of course.
  
  If the clan is below 1000 Elo, just invert the formula so it improves passively toward the current standard. If you're at negative ELO, Camping till you're at 1000 wouldn't be feasible since the relative value would take you forever. Or maybe just disable ELO improvement for this kind of scenario.
  
  
• Fixed value: Just lose 1 elo per day. This would ensure every clan regardless of ranking decays the same amount of elo if inactive.
  
  

The reason 3 games have to be played is so they don't just play one cw every 5 days and reset the timer so easily. Maybe even up the games played to 5. Or maybe reduce days to 3.
As a backend dev I can say this wouldn't be hard to implement. my 2 cents

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 01.12.2019 at 16:58

Or bb elo if some clan doesnt play few days... What if random clan reach 1300 elo in some period and then other soy "competitive groups" decline to cw them, on x days period so that leading coalition lost points because all ignored their calls on war clan.

Watch things from more angles.

Thats why clan season elo need to be removed and changed with point so only the clan with most win and most cw played will deserve the trophy

Skrivet av Croat, 01.12.2019 at 18:13

Skrivet av Mauzer Panteri, 01.12.2019 at 16:58

Come on, please, start being rational, objective and fair, stop being a hypocrite .

Are you that much shooked that we are champions so you need to change whole comptetetive scene?

bathetic

Skrivet av Your Laki, 02.12.2019 at 03:57

Are you that much shooked that we are champions so you need to change whole comptetetive scene?

bathetic

Nah we need change anyway when amigos started playing mid season mk and illy cried when illy won last season with 40 cws everyone cried when mk camp 45 days everyone cry every season there is a drama cuz of elo system that's why clan elo needs to be removed

Skrivet av Kaska, 02.12.2019 at 03:09

Skrivet av Croat, 30.11.2019 at 18:42

Come on, please, start being rational, objective and fair, stop being a hypocrite .

MK is so self obsessed that they think Its all about them winning a shitty season

Come on u Serbian low life, it's time to move on and implement something new that will increase the number of players

Skrivet av Your Laki, 02.12.2019 at 03:57

Are you that much shooked that we are champions so you need to change whole comptetetive scene?

bathetic

No one gives a fuck about your all together's in-clan fap on that worthless camping trophy, but the system needs to change and MK was last to prove it.

That's it, stop giving yourself some extra credits of importance. You didnt even compete for 45 days, meaning that superior feeling you have is fake, dude.

It's not only about MK. MK just participated in this. We really gotta stop encouraging and awarding fast elo gaining and camping for more than half of season and try to force activity and fairness if you really want that competitive scene still exists.
It's on you to realize.