A solution to the Clan Wars System

It's amusing how in my Clan War System 2013 thread I had suggested a 25 CW minimum. I knew where I wanted to push the community, but I also knew it was a bit ambitious. Now we look at the current situation:

- Mortal Kombat, Illyria, Syndicate, and Stalins Martians all have over one hundred CWs in the last two months
- Illyria/Mortal Kombat having over a hundred in the last 30 days alone.
- 11 coalitions with 30 or more CWs
- At least 5 CWs are played daily overall

Times have changed. Coalitions are no longer the [filthy] casuals they used to be. There is now enough sample space for a real system that judges who the best are. The current system, like the former 10 CW's max we had, punishes the best coalitions.

It needs to go.

We've went from competence mattering with only 4/5 powerful clans, to a 10 max toxic CW environment, to only your last 10, then last 20, and now 30 CW's counting. And the implementation of minimum +/- 50 somewhere in between. Each move has only been a temporary fix. A patch on top of a patch, creating scars seen today as a slow moving disaster. None of these changes were for the future, but only to satisfy the environments that were at hand.

I've asked for significant changes before, changes that ensure that future environments have a wide playing field. Now I ask to cut the previous changes, and take a step back while simply adding a new layer. Things have changed from 2013. Here I seek the best, but also the most easily implemented, system.

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Solution: We switch how a season is ranked from Earned CP to competence.

We do not need the minimum 50 CP restriction anymore. This was actually implemented to help the top clans make a higher place in a season, evidently it didn't work. A side effect of this act was that to make +/- 50 the minimum, they had to make +/- 0.05 competence the minimum as well. I'll explain the importance of that later. To make the new system work, this restriction must be removed.

This raises the problem of high competence clans only gaining around 0.01 competence per CW against the lowest competence coalitions, instead of the normal 0.05 we have now. This is easily fixed in a way that should have been done from the start.

Solution: We create a separate competence ranking for each season. Every coalition starts at 1.0 competence per season while keeping their overall competence on the Cln index. This way the administrators can continue using the coding for competence instead of making a whole new calculation system. Just adjustments and duplication.

Problem:But what if someone waits till the end of the season, and only CW's coalitions with high competence and gains a few wins? What if they get a lucky streak?
Facing those high competence clans is a problem in and of itself. Ignoring that, we can fix that problem AND encourage more games.

Solution: A minimum number of CLN Wars shall be required to be ranked in a season. This ensures a decent sample size to judge where a coalition should be placed. All clans, no matter how good, will have losses. There are times where the best have problems. We want to include those times in our ranking.

Minimum 40 Coalition Wars to be ranked.

Remember that you only gain competence at high rates when you are lower than your opponents. The rate is supposed to slow the higher you get. High clans will be forced to face each other to advance. Basically, play enough games and this will even out. Three months is a long time to play. The best will come out on top, as they will have proven themselves. As they have proven themselves to their peers.




Can you imagine someone with 2000 Chess ELO being only allowed to gain +10 when he's won against someone with 2400? Or what about someone with 2700 winning against a 2300 rated(or less) player and automatically getting +5 each and every game? Literally playing anyone and they get +5 every single game. Yet when the lowest manage a miracle win, they only get +10.

In CW competence under atWar's arrangement, the first people to rack up wins are pretty hard to move off. And those who play against the best will always lose 0.5 CW competence, and thus go into negatives when they wouldn't have normally.

When we remove that +/- 50 CP minimum, and thus the +/- 0.05 competence minimum, we fix this situation.

Shadow Aces, who today is argued about because they're going to win top 3 in the season with such a low win/loss ratio, wouldn't even have a negative competence without the minimum 50 that the better clans win. Same with Band of Brothers (Formerly known as KJP).

You've standardized wins to +50 and +100. Those below 1.0 competence will always get +100 against those with 2.0 competence or higher. There's only 10 clans in between 1.0 and 2.0 that get different winnings against a 2.0 competence clan, and only 4 of those are "active" anyway. Basically clans are pushed to the extremes, either they rise consistently or they fall hard the more they play

I also want all CW's recalculated under these rules, so we can properly determine where the overall coalition index should look like without that minimum 50 from the start. Getting above 3.0 competence should be hard to do. Going into negative competence should be hard to do.

Go back through all CWs and recalculate competence from the start removing the minimum 50 restriction. Remake the overall standings. The overall leaderboard will look slightly different, with less extremes on the top and negative scores. A difference must be made, and this is better for all coalitions and competitive environments in the future.

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[All info is at the time of posting, 31.01.2015]

However the meaning of Clan Points (CP) would be useless if the coalitions are ranked up by Competence (I mean, they don't display accurately how much CW's have you fought).

IMO, would be easier to fix the Clan Points system than change it for the competence system....

Sounds like a big improvement, gj desu my motivational meme worked .

the only concern though woud be a bluecher2 like clan rising through the ranks playing only lesser clans. with 3 months for 40 cws you have time to never challenge yourself and play only cws you know youll win.

Support

Skrivet av clovis1122, 31.01.2015 at 12:07

However the meaning of Clan Points (CP) would be useless if the coalitions are ranked up by Competence (I mean, they don't display accurately how much CW's have you fought).

IMO, would be easier to fix the Clan Points system than change it for the competence system....

Competence= Clan Points earned - Clan Points lost +1000
In the current system if you only cw low competence clan you would get 50 cp for each win and lose 100 cp for each loss but the 100cp would not be taken into account so I think Competence is a better indicator of the clan strength.

The number of CW played would also impact the competence if a clan is better or worst than the average of course.

So far it is the best solution ive seen, not perfect but a huge improvement.Totally support all Desu's points.

Skrivet av Permamuted, 31.01.2015 at 12:16

Sounds like a big improvement, gj desu my motivational meme worked .

the only concern though woud be a bluecher2 like clan rising through the ranks playing only lesser clans. with 3 months for 40 cws you have time to never challenge yourself and play only cws you know youll win.

I think Desu attempted to identify that potential problem. Theoretically speaking the system for point awarding would revert back to its original way pre min 50cp gain and in turn the removal of the minimum competence gain of 0.05, at the start of the season sure stronger clans can pray on the weak for a little boost but eventually the point gain chances would force the stronger clans to challenge themselves, especially with the 40 game requirement

For the record though Desu this is better than the idea from 2013

Wow fully support. I wish I could add more upvotes.
Thing is even with this system you can't stop farming. For instance clan X playing clan Y 30 times and winning the season having avoided the best clan throughout the season. I guess things like that can't stopped, but other than that great idea

Skrivet av minusSeven, 01.02.2015 at 12:44

Wow fully support. I wish I could add more upvotes.
Thing is even with this system you can't stop farming. For instance clan X playing clan Y 30 times and winning the season having avoided the best clan throughout the season. I guess things like that can't stopped, but other than that great idea

It sure is hard to stop farming. If clan X played clan Y 30 times and clan Y basically let clan X win, they'd soon find themselves only gaining 0.01 or lower competence per game because the +50 CP minimum is out of the way (It'd be like getting +10 CP for an entire game), They wouldn't be able to pass the best clan(s) that way either. 40 minimum ensures at least a marginal amount of plays is against the higher competence clans that emerge throughout the season.

I could see Clan Y letting Clan X beat them at the start of a season, then playing throughout the season to get back above 1.0 competence or higher then letting clan X beat them again. Repeat, but they'd again run into that wall where they don't gain anything meaningful unless it's against a top clan. At best they could complete a marginal level of farming

Also a "bluecher2" level of farming is hard to complete when the seasonal competence resets in 3 months anyway.

I don't duel, but I almost think ELO should be run by seasons as well. Just record a "Peak ELO" on someones account and reset the "Current" ELO every 3 months. This way you'll always know the top 10 are the current best duelists. But it'll also record the highest ELO a person has reached, so they know what to aim for next time.

Very Good idea.
Is there anything than can also be implemented about maximum competence earned per game ( 100 cp points / 0.1 comp ) as shown that it is too much.
Maybe it would be ok with this system but we shall ask us the question.

Skrivet av ArminyMouse, 03.02.2015 at 05:24

Hm,how i read this,you want to kill new clans bcs they don't have good players to win 18:12.
That wiill do nothing good bcs only good clans will exist,all clans that don't have 10good players will be deleted,then bye 3v3 cw,mbe will be rp or ancient.
This cw system is good,bcs new clans have a chance to be in top5,just stop making this idiotic solutions for problem that doesn't exist.
GG NO RE.

Andertes,
I think the real point is making the CW system as fair as possible so that the BEST clan of the season wins it.
It is good to make noob clans have better chance to win and stuff but it's simply not fair. When they go top 5 they usually don't really deserve it.
That's why as u can see nearly every players wants to change the cw system.

This in my opinion is an over engineered clan elo system similar to duels. A more simplified version of this idea would work best all round, basically clan elo resetting to 1000 every season as spart published. Requiring little dev work ( I guess) and encouraging more clans to play clan wars if clan elo was displayed next to standard player elo in game. Though in all honesty both ideas deserve being tested to see which players prefer.

Honestly coalition ELO would kind of suck. Once you reach a high ELO there is little inventive to continue playing. And 1 win by a low ELO clan could take so much ELO from a high ELO clan it takes 5 wins just to make it back.

Skrivet av Acquiesce, 03.02.2015 at 09:59

Honestly coalition ELO would kind of suck. Once you reach a high ELO there is little inventive to continue playing. And 1 win by a low ELO clan could take so much ELO from a high ELO clan it takes 5 wins just to make it back.

Although it would be possible to take over the clan at the top of the elo ranking by being more active and playing clan wars. Perhaps a maximum win/loss of 8 elo would help to balance this.

This....

Here's my opinion,
we did not avoided the good clans, we only avoided higher ranks.
The problem is that the most powerful clans are not playing with lower ranks just using high ranks (honor exceptions). we are not the strongest clan but I think the season is not designed to be won by the best, instead the best this season. We tried to play with fair ranks,that is just discipline and tactics.
We played 12 cw with sm and won 5 I think. It's an indication that we can cope with the same ranks and we deserve to be in the top five, regardless of what you suggesting I'm just giving an example. Big like to SM for training new players, you showed me how to play-thank you one more time.
Make cw season that you think is best, but just please do not attack the clans as BoB who play by the rules that are defined before the start of the season.
I think we underestimate weak clans without them it would not be enough clans for cw.
AW can not survive only with MK SM SYN ILLY ...

We know who is the best, but the best does not win every time. Make place for low rank clans to grove.

respect Desu for makeing AW a better game


sry for my english

You know the clan war system is fucked when a shitty clan like ban of brothers wins first place.

Disgusting farmers

Tunder you wrote what i expected of you... New clans need to cw with someone, they played with MK then us.
If anything you dont change respect for that, but this is topic for discusion not for insults.

Skrivet av mantis..., 03.02.2015 at 17:03

AW can not survive only with MK SM SYN ILLY ...

Nice circle:


.........................................

This system needs a huge change asap. Sad clans who farm to get a freaking trophy which all of us know they dont deserve actually just ruins the part of earning the trophy....
I dont know if any of you guys actually could think straight or are just beyond greedy for status in this game..

Skrivet av ArminyMouse, 03.02.2015 at 05:24

Hm,how i read this,you want to kill new clans bcs they don't have good players to win 18:12.
That wiill do nothing good bcs only good clans will exist,all clans that don't have 10good players will be deleted,then bye 3v3 cw,mbe will be rp or ancient.
This cw system is good,bcs new clans have a chance to be in top5,just stop making this idiotic solutions for problem that doesn't exist.
GG NO RE.

Clearly you don't understand the current state of the competitive community. There is no such thing as a 'new clan with new players.' A group of ranks 3-5 don't just say "Hey lets make a clan and CW!" The majority of new competitive players were recruited by clans such as SM, Illyria, Syndicate, evoL (responsible for a LOT of the current competitive players I might add) and as these new players grow within the community, a group of them decide to detach from their current clans and form their own. These 'new clans' are created by players already experienced in 3v3. They are not complete noobs. Therefore, they do not deserve bonus cp just because they made a new clan even though they are already experienced. Every clan might as well just make a copy of their coalition at the start of the season at this rate.

You do not deserve to be in the top three. You never did. The problem here is new clans with experienced players (and while you recruited a bunch of noobs you still have a three player team of experienced players) like yourselves. Regardless of what you think, it is the entire competitive community vs you and Shadow Aces. You may recieve a trophy for this season. Maybe even next season. But the system WILL change and when it does, it will be highly unlikely that you ever hit the top five in a season again.

Your clan is 8:18 vs SM. Your hardly CW any other top tier clan. When the CW system switches over, we'll have to click the "Show more" button on the coalition index page for Band of Brothers to show up.

Skrivet av minusSeven, 01.02.2015 at 12:44

Wow fully support. I wish I could add more upvotes.
Thing is even with this system you can't stop farming. For instance clan X playing clan Y 30 times and winning the season having avoided the best clan throughout the season. I guess things like that can't stopped, but other than that great idea

Or there can be a restriction on how many times Clan X can play Clan Y in a season, let's say 5 or something like that?

Skrivet av CrypticCDN, 14.02.2015 at 21:47

Skrivet av minusSeven, 01.02.2015 at 12:44

Wow fully support. I wish I could add more upvotes.
Thing is even with this system you can't stop farming. For instance clan X playing clan Y 30 times and winning the season having avoided the best clan throughout the season. I guess things like that can't stopped, but other than that great idea

Or there can be a restriction on how many times Clan X can play Clan Y in a season, let's say 5 or something like that?

No that is counter intuitive. Tops clans like mk and illyria play against one another lot of times. We just have to ensure that they don't get advantage playing
against one another that way. And Desu's solution does seem to be have a solution.

Citera:

Citera:

Or there can be a restriction on how many times Clan X can play Clan Y in a season, let's say 5 or something like that?

No that is counter intuitive. Tops clans like mk and illyria play against one another lot of times. We just have to ensure that they don't get advantage playing
against one another that way. And Desu's solution does seem to be have a solution.

Ok yeah I knew that, it was just suggestion, but I guess there could be an option to be added like seeing each clan they've played during a season but other than that Desu's solution is good

Skrivet av Desu, 31.01.2015 at 11:44

*snip*

Fantastic presentation, Desu. I like your ideas, we can try them out next season. However, I'm worried about retroactively recalculating CP/competence - it doesn't seem entirely fair and I'm sure a lot of coalitions would take offense at that. I was thinking of a complete reset as an alternative - Competence: 1 and CP: 0. Would probably make even more people angry, though

I also like monthly Elo rankings. Ideally, I'd like these 2 systems to be very similar to each other.

Thats a REALLY COOL system, gj Desu.
I support every single detail and I'm happy that we are going to try that soon!

Thank you waffel for fighting and getting attention for cw system!

- You're welcome!