Drugs and Facts.

Skrivet av Khal.eesi, 19.03.2016 at 06:39

As an ex-junky turned volunteer addiction councellor myself, let me just say she couldnt be more wrong. Its wrong from a scientific (physical) pov, because the body needs a substance buildup and tolerance increase to start experiencing what we call addiction. An actual addict will experience shivering, headaches, pain, shaking and many others, when he is off. From a psychological pov, she was just experiencing feelings of joy, peace and hapiness and forgot all about pain, problems and stress and she just liked it, same as a little kid eats a candy and wants more, she was definately not hooked. If she was hooked then the next day she wouldnt be able to think anything other than getting her fix, she would be under constant stress, anxiety and anger.

Some things are just bad using and consuming.. It doesn't matter if it grows in nature, that's not an argument but excuse. Many things create addiction, sex, driving, playing video games, working, medication, all sorts of weird stuff. That doesn't mean we should legalize them, promote or march to 'raise awareness'.

Medication (other word for drugs) like antibiotics are cure for viruses, yet in large dose they harm the body and need probiotics to reestablish balance in the organism. Same with alcohol, just because it taste nice doesn't mean you should drink 5 galons for one dinner and consider that normal. People today force themselves to drink excessive until they intoxicate and harm their brain(cells) and bodies(organism) and they consider that cool (dude im so wasted, its awesome).
Same with drugs.

Or you consider it normal to legalize stuff and thus force people to gradually accept it through decades? Like alcohol and prostitution.


Not that it hurts us, we mafiosi do business with drugs, alcohol and prostitution. And that legalization will allow us to reduce competition between our Families (no more mob wars), and get a share (in the drugs) as a legal entity where we will make profit in peace.. and of course still not pay taxes as every normal corporation does(not)

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 19.03.2016 at 07:24

Some things are just bad using and consuming..
It doesn't matter if it grows in nature, that's not an argument but excuse. Many things create addiction, sex, driving, playing video games, working, medication, all sorts of weird stuff. That doesn't mean we should legalize them, promote or march to 'raise awareness'.

I will assume that by "bad" you mean directly harmfull to ones health? Like makeup, cleaning chemicals, fossil fuels, sugar, butter, obesity, gmo's, junk food, internet, wall street, kickboxing, islam? Thousands die of diabetes every year, people have died even from playing world of warcraft addiction, never heard of a pothead dying from weed. All these things are perfectly legal, weed is not.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 19.03.2016 at 07:24

Medication (other word for drugs) like antibiotics are cure for viruses, yet in large dose they harm the body and need probiotics to reestablish balance in the organism. Same with alcohol, just because it taste nice doesn't mean you should drink 5 galons for one dinner and consider that normal. People today force themselves to drink excessive until they intoxicate and harm their brain(cells) and bodies(organism) and they consider that cool (dude im so wasted, its awesome).
Same with drugs.

Thats just natural selection at work. If someone wants to drink himself to death, eat himself to death, die jumping from a rooftop because he saw spiderman in tv, die by driving recklessly and crash, take pills and alchohol to killhimself because his gambling debts are too high, blow himself up because allah told him so, inject poison like heroin in his veins and od, just LET HIM. Its normal, its how life works and we will all be better off as a species. All we can do is provide education and make sure it has the lightest blowback to the rest of th population.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 19.03.2016 at 07:24

Or you consider it normal to legalize stuff and thus force people to gradually accept it through decades? Like alcohol and prostitution.

Erm yes? Offcourse its normal and those you mentioned, are already more or less legalized in the developed world.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 19.03.2016 at 07:24

Not that it hurts us, we mafiosi do business with drugs, alcohol and prostitution. And that legalization will allow us to reduce competition between our Families (no more mob wars), and get a share (in the drugs) as a legal entity where we will make profit in peace.. and of course still not pay taxes as every normal corporation does(not)

Yes it will hurt you. Legalising drugs, will make them subject to market rules. It will eliminate monopolies, prices will drop, competition will rise, quality will be secured, they will be taxed and the production, distribution and marketing will take place through legal channels.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 19.03.2016 at 07:24

Medication (other word for drugs) like antibiotics are cure for viruses, yet in large dose they harm the body and need probiotics to reestablish balance in the organism. Same with alcohol, just because it taste nice doesn't mean you should drink 5 galons for one dinner and consider that normal. People today force themselves to drink excessive until they intoxicate and harm their brain(cells) and bodies(organism) and they consider that cool (dude im so wasted, its awesome).
Same with drugs.

For me it seems like you're trying to make a separation between medication and drugs...

Just so you know, both Cannabis and Heroin can be used for medical purposes, yet they're illegal...

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 19.03.2016 at 07:24

Medication (other word for drugs) like antibiotics are cure for viruses, yet in large dose they harm the body and need probiotics to reestablish balance in the organism. Same with alcohol, just because it taste nice doesn't mean you should drink 5 galons for one dinner and consider that normal. People today force themselves to drink excessive until they intoxicate and harm their brain(cells) and bodies(organism) and they consider that cool (dude im so wasted, its awesome).
Same with drugs.

Even water in large dose is harmful and can kill you XD anything in bad dose can be harmful and even deadly. That's not the point.

The matter is to educate people. It's the vital point in all this discussion. The most important question is: is people responsible and smart enough to understand the limits of one's own body and have a responsable consumption? One can teach and give the information to anyone who is willing to listen. This person in turn, can apply this information into his own benefit. When talking about certain substances which have a shorter range of safetyness when consuming, this information can still be limited since it not only involves ones logic, but also involves psycological aspects such as feelings. The later ones are harder to control and can lead to people having issues with certain addicting drugs. So, the question still stands: should we trust in educating these people or better avoid the danger of exposing them to these substances?

Skrivet av Khal.eesi, 19.03.2016 at 07:16

As for the harassment, if we agree to it,then its only logical to ban Albanians, fascists, anarchists, gamblers, immigrants, corporations, politicians and cops among others, since a percentage among the populace of these groups also commit crimes, or are prone to commit crimes (arguably) due to their set of values, ideologies, habits, beliefs, etc

You forgot the Communists - They are the main instigator of political violence here in Sweden

Skrivet av Columna Durruti, 18.03.2016 at 20:31

Skrivet av 5th SS Wiking, 18.03.2016 at 20:08

Isn't it a fundamental human right to do as we damn please with our own bodies? Or in your world, does the state have a right to own our bodies and therefore have the right to decide we what do with them?

I basically agree with this. But, the State has the fundamental obligation to protect life.

Then we wouldn't be allowed to do anything. Because the risk is the only variable in play here, in practice everything has a small chance of killing you. To live is to risk to lose it.
If anything, we should be free to make that judgement ourselves. The people who are dumb enough to overdose etc, well, do we want them in our society anyway?

Skrivet av 5th SS Wiking, 19.03.2016 at 17:14

...do we want them in our society anyway?

Actually yes; but differently.

Skrivet av Columna Durruti, 19.03.2016 at 17:18

Skrivet av 5th SS Wiking, 19.03.2016 at 17:14

...do we want them in our society anyway?

Actually yes; but differently.

You do realize that we anyhow do have a grave overpopulation problem at this very moment... Right now, we could use some extra casualties.

Skrivet av Khal.eesi, 19.03.2016 at 07:58

Yes it will hurt you. Legalising drugs, will make them subject to market rules. It will eliminate monopolies, prices will drop, competition will rise, quality will be secured, they will be taxed and the production, distribution and marketing will take place through legal channels.

Oh.. naive Khalesi.. you are so sweet.

Didn't you talk about EU flawed policies the other day? Do i have to tell you (you already know) about deals, fixed prices, agreements-behind-curtain, deals-in-the-lobby hall and monopolies?

So you're saying if we legalize drugs cartels and mafia will instantly have to pay tax and have government regulations and monitoring on their heads? So we can't handle Coca-Cola, Goldman & Sachs, Monsanto, BP, can't make them pay taxes or investigate whom they bribe and where do they spread corruption, but it is definitely sure that mafia will answer to the government?

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 22.03.2016 at 16:46

-

Dunno why you dodge the fact that whenever it was implemented, it worked.

I've made some research, and actually a fairly amount of states had implemented regulation following Portugal example. Cannabis for example is legal in 20 states and the district of columbia on United States.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_liberalization

I haven't found any place where laws to regulate drugs were counter-productive. Feel free to link us if you ever find one.


Your ideas seems to be based on common sense which anyone could think that is right, but it fail against the reality and facts. Wise Amok would say:

Skrivet av Amok, 25.02.2015 at 17:54

... is kind of like communism - looks good on paper, but impossible in the real world.

The war on drug failed. It will never work. Rather just let drug be legal and regulate it.

Accept the facts.

Skrivet av clovis1122, 22.03.2016 at 17:21

Your ideas seems to be based on common sense which anyone could think that is right, but it fail against the reality and facts. Wise Amok would say:

Skrivet av Amok, 25.02.2015 at 17:54

... is kind of like communism - looks good on paper, but impossible in the real world.

The war on drug failed. It will never work. Rather just let drug be legal and regulate it.

Accept the facts.

No disrespect but now you sound like 'communist'; Amok was right, because communism enabled people to spread corruption. Same with drugs; looks good on paper, and have few examples where it partially worked in reality, but truth is it will just raise mortality, it's not working.

When drugs entered Russia in 1991 when USSR died and borders opened, mortality rate skyrocketed for +500,000 a year. Do you think Russia would survive if Putin legalize drugs? Do you think that will reduce consumption or encourage addicts to seek help/info? No. It will just raise mortality rate even more because dealers will flood the streets with drugs and children will run to buy it like zombies (without thinking about consequences).

You know i am anti-nazi, but some arguments they use today (ofc for populism, but yet its true) are correct; like state sanctioning some stuff to protect population. That include drugs, prostitution, slavery, monopoly, exploitation, crime, illness, natural disasters, invasions. Some argue for example that if state cease to exist and disband the army, civilians will organize themselves alone if someone invade them, or they will create their own local police to protect from bandits, or fund hospitals to treat them, or create private schools, build roads and infrastructure. You are one of them: promoting liberalisation of drugs and let people decide.

The real problem behind is the one i repeated above: cartels and mafia. By legalizing drugs you will wash their history, you will make them clean. You will spit on cold corpses of innocent humans who died from malnutrition in cartel drug factories, from violence, torture and executions.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 22.03.2016 at 17:43

When drugs entered Russia in 1991 when USSR died and borders opened, mortality rate skyrocketed for +500,000 a year. Do you think Russia would survive if Putin legalize drugs? Do you think that will reduce consumption or encourage addicts to seek help/info? No. It will just raise mortality rate even more because dealers will flood the streets with drugs and children will run to buy it like zombies (without thinking about consequences).

I can see that you have some concerns about the situation of drugs in Russia.

Yes, after the borders were opened, the drug accessed through Ex-URSS countries such as Russia, causing casualties there. The traffic of drug increased and it eventually became a problem for Russia.

But let me ask you something: What was Russian's response?

Citera:

Russia defies growing consensus with declaration of 'total war on drugs'
Under new laws being drawn up addicts would be forced into treatment or jailed, and dealers 'treated like serial killers'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/08/russia-total-war-on-drugs

WOW Russia also declares war on drugs!

Citera:

As the West throttles down on its 45-year-old war on drugs, acknowledging that the trillion-dollar price tag has only fuelled civil conflict in Latin America, crowded the prisons at home, and harmed more addicts than it has healed, another bloc of nations is gearing up to implement the self-same failed policies. So guess who's with China, Indonesia, Russia and the Middle East on this? Yup, South Africa, under the inspired guidance of the Hawks.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2016-03-07-comrades-in-arms-south-africa-russia-and-the-new-global-war-on-drugs#.VvHxy_nhDIU

Citera:

Putin Boosts Russian Role in Global War on Drugs

In an effort to enhance its image as a global player in combatting drug flows, Moscow welcomed 120 top anti-drug officials from around the world on Wednesday to discuss possibilities for cooperation in curbing an issue responsible for an estimated 200,000 deaths annually.

Addressing participants at the International Drug Enforcement Conference, President Vladimir Putin said Russia is ready to pull its international weight in the Collective Security Treaty Organization, a Russia-led regional security group, and with the EU in making "practical steps toward eliminating the drug threat."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-boosts-russian-role-in-global-war-on-drugs/481218.html

---

---

Let's make a stop here. So far I've only told you what you already knew: Russia is following old West politics and "declared" war on drugs. But this didn't started in modern Russia (in case you were wondering). The fight against drugs remotes back to the URSS era (just leaving you the link here in case you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Soviet_Union)

So now you're fully aware that Russia as a republic of the URSS and as an independent state has always been fighting against drugs. At least since 1974.

After the URSS collapse....

Citera:

The epidemic started with heroin, in the early 1990s. The context is well known: the Soviet Union was collapsing, borders were opening, the state's control of its population was evaporating. Young people were poor, unemployed, and eager to try anything Western: music, fashion, drugs—all of which were available.

[...] Russian traffickers in the 1990s faced no such geographical obstacles, largely because Afghanistan had emerged in the late 1980s as the world's largest producer of opium and the dominant supplier to Europe. Key trafficking routes ran through Kazakhstan and Tajikistan, along Russia's massive southern border.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/death-indifference-aids-and-heroin-addiction-russia

Drug started to spread even more to Russia. Once again, what was Russian response?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Drug_Control_Service_of_Russia

Fight against drugs.

---

And now that we confirmed and re-confirmed Russian's response to drugs, shall we see the results?

Citera:

The HIV epidemic in Russia that began in the mid 1990's is embedded in a parallel epidemic of drug abuse. According to official statistics, the number of registered HIV-positive individuals nationwide has increased from just over 1,000 at the beginning of 1996 to nearly 450,000 by the end of 2008 and the number of newly registered infections from 2005 through 2008 exceeded 35,000 annually, increasing the cumulative incidence by 10% annually (Pokrovsky et al., 2008). It was estimated that true prevalence - 940,000 in 2007 -- was more than double the official count of 417,715 (UNAIDS, 2008). To date, the epidemic remains concentrated among injection drug users (IDUs) who comprise more than 80% of the infections with attributable risk (Goliusov et al., 2008).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875272/

Citera:

(Prevalence of Injection Drug Use-Related HIV in Russia, 2012) "Russia has the largest population of injecting drug users (IDUs) in the world — an estimated 1·8 million people. More than a third have HIV; in some regions, the proportion is nearer to three-quarters. Astonishingly, an estimated 90% of Russian IDUs have hepatitis C, and most patients co-infected with HIV and tuberculosis in Russia are drug-dependent.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Russia#sthash.EJeavsz6.cQHg1VPw.dpuf

Citera:

Russia ranks first in the world in the consumption of heroin; 21% of the world's heroin production and 5% of all opium-based drugs are consumed in Russia, according to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime Prevention report, published in October 2009.
Nearly 90% of all drug addicts in Russia use opiates, and primarily heroin, which is produced entirely in Afghanistan. There are an estimated 1.68 million opiate users in Russia.

http://sputniknews.com/society/20100601/159275131.html#ixzz43gnD4Rjh

---

---

Now you can see that it simply grew faster than anywhere else.

I'd like you to admit that the war against drugs was a pure, and entire failure.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 22.03.2016 at 17:43

The real problem behind is the one i repeated above: cartels and mafia. By legalizing drugs you will wash their history, you will make them clean. You will spit on cold corpses of innocent humans who died from malnutrition in cartel drug factories, from violence, torture and executions.

I could of repeat myself some pages after about how it worked in several countries, but I believe that as long as you think that simply fighting against drug works, you won't accept any of the other facts as true.

Khal also spoke about the prices and Mafias quite nice I believe.

Skrivet av clovis1122, 22.03.2016 at 21:28

Alright, you got my attention with your policy.

First, i never defended War on Drugs, they failed and wasted money, time and lives. War of any kind is a mistake from start, never had positive end results. I believe in enforced/applied laws. That mean parliament/legislation make laws but police and judiciary enforce it in the state/society/country. If judge is bribed and doesn't enforce the law (in some case) that will trigger chain reaction on long terms, like corruption and crime. Anyway, this is another topic.

Second, answer me this in short words, or simply yes and no: If (for example Russia, let's take it because drugs abuse/consumption is prevalent and rising) country legalize drugs, and government fund rehab-centers, allow private clinics, end criminality, prosecution and all that;



1. Will that reduce mortality and illness among drug addicts/consumers?

2. Will that reduce drug consumtion (and consumers number)?

3. WIll that reduce drugs import?

4. Will that prevent or slow down chasing and investigating crimes of cartels and mafia concerning slavery, murder, torture, tax evasion, forgery, malversation, embezlement and corruption?

5. What is your(our) final goal: to reduce drugs consumption or just heal consumers?

Sorry for the delay.

Skrivet av Skanderbeg, 23.03.2016 at 17:15

If (for example Russia) country legalize drugs, and government fund rehab-centers, allow private clinics, end criminality, prosecution and all that;

Citera:

1. Will that reduce mortality and illness among drug addicts/consumers?

Yes. Addicts are going threatened in the hospital. They'll be with doctors, nurses and psychologist which will help them to actually get a life outside of drugs. You would intuited that it's a lot easier to save drug people from death if they're already in the hospital.

Citera:

Switzerland also had a huge heroin crisis. Under a visionary president — Ruth Dreifus — they decided to try an experiment. If you are a heroin addict, you are assigned to a clinic, and you are given your heroin there, for free, where you use it supervised by a doctor or nurse. You are given support to turn your life around, and find a job, and housing.

... at least that's how Switzerland did it. I'm not too sure about letting them consume drug on their homes though (despite it has show just as good results like in Portugal).

Citera:

2. Will that reduce drug consumtion (and consumers number)?

I'm afraid I can't answer you this. I've got my own doubts despite the facts proves that it does indeed, reduces drug consumption. Probably a consequence of the above (people being threatened in hospital and other places by psychologist to turn their lives around).

Citera:

3. WIll that reduce drugs import?

No, but I fail to see how that is a bad thing though. We're planning to regularize drugs to avoid injuries and abuses, not to remove them completely (which is impossible I believe).

Citera:

4. Will that prevent or slow down chasing and investigating crimes of cartels and mafia concerning slavery, murder, torture, tax evasion, forgery, malversation, embezlement and corruption?

Skrivet av Khal.eesi, 19.03.2016 at 07:58

Yes it will hurt you. Legalising drugs, will make them subject to market rules. It will eliminate monopolies, prices will drop, competition will rise, quality will be secured, they will be taxed and the production, distribution and marketing will take place through legal channels.

Khal's explanation is quite nice for the question. My only concern is that so far I've only see the legalization of drugs being implemented on advanced societies (To being more concrete: with low corruption).

I'm still not convinced about implementing it on societies where corruption is a thing.

As for cartels, I doubt they're made legal. They commercialized drug while it was illegal not for say the murder/rape/crime that they committed while doing so. And since the now legal drug market will have lower price, the cartels are doomed. This also hurts other terrorist organizations that makes money on drugs.

Citera:

5. What is your(our) final goal: to reduce drugs consumption or just heal consumers?

It depends on your sense of 'healing'.

The goal need to be a successful rehabilitation into the society, in which the subject will either consume very few or no drug at all, and will also not abuse it.