Do helicopters need a boost?

So there was an interesting idea about boosting helicopters in the 'Sky Menace' strategy. Apparently we couldn't agree to that. However, we were talking in Room chat that Helicopters could indeed, get a boost in default (for every strategy). This thread is all about boosting helicopters for all the strategies.

Do you think they need a boost? Which one? If no, why no?

My proposal: -30 cost.

My though: The cost for the bonus against infantries is pretty good if compared to the rest of default units. Some examples of units vs infantries in city:

8 attack vs 6 defense - 120 cost - Tanks
6 attack vs 6 defense - 160 cost - Bombers
6 attack vs 4 defense - 170 cost - Helicopters.

What balances the heli / bomber comparison is that bombers have almost double range than helis (8 helis, 15 bombers).

Perhaps there could just be some upgrades such as range, attck, capacity,etc.. for helicopters

Helicopters are different from bombers in that they can drop down into a city and people can get on and off them. My suggestion would be to make helicopters allowed to carry units at all times. I know they can hold marines only in desert storm. Why not allow them to carry militia or something all the time? That would be a simple boost b

Skrivet av jimmynow, 31.08.2015 at 11:23

Why not allow them to carry militia or something all the time? That would be a simple boost b

This idea should be worked on in my opinion... problem is tho AT's do the same thing yet are way more expensive and have no defense power.

Skrivet av Goblin, 31.08.2015 at 11:35

Skrivet av jimmynow, 31.08.2015 at 11:23

Why not allow them to carry militia or something all the time? That would be a simple boost b

This idea should be worked on in my opinion... problem is tho AT's do the same thing yet are way more expensive and have no defense power.

well helicopters could only carry militia and maybe inf,also they should ofc have less capacity then ATs.

Skrivet av Evic, 31.08.2015 at 11:41

well helicopters could only carry militia and maybe inf,also they should ofc have less capacity then ATs.

Its not alright to only look at sheer capacity limit... think of the mobility they could produce at a low price while being a unit you would already build for attacking.

Testing would be nice... by customizing the unit with editor.

I'm not sure they need a boost so much as a legitimate purpose. Currently they behave like a bomber....but without the range. Granted they are cheaper but not that much cheaper. They need both the attributes of a bomber and an air transport. Maybe even nerf the range a little more and only Carry militia. The fact that it has the higher attack means you lose it each time you attack unlike an air trans. So it's sort of an expensive strategy.

Implement it in Cthulhu's rebel strategy!

I feel helicopters just cost too much for what they are worth. IMO its like buys a militia troops for 80 gc, or a infantry for 70 gc (no to scale with bomber:heli price, just random numbers). The heli's should cost around 130 gc (give or take a couple 10 gc's).

Also I like the idea of adding in the abilty for them to carry troops, but at that point it cuts into DS for no reason. Than DS would become worthless as I know I would just use MoS and helicopters to replicate DS.

Cost is the issue for helis, as long as they cost more than bombers, people wont use them. My suggestion : -30 or -40 cost. Stats should remain the same

Actually comparison should be between helis and tanks given the range of helis 120$ vs 200$ for about same attacking power but helis cant take cities.... so today no incentive to buy helis...

Skrivet av Kraigg, 01.09.2015 at 01:39

Actually comparison should be between helis and tanks given the range of helis 120$ vs 200$ for about same attacking power but helis cant take cities.... so today no incentive to buy helis...

The fact that helis can't take cities can be compared to the fact that Tanks can't fly oversea. Helis also have 1 more range than Tanks. The -2 def bonus though, some people thinks it equals to helis having 8 attack when it is actually better than that. It makes helicopters more effective against Infantries than Tanks, but I don't really know in which ratio.

2 attack vs 1 defense is better than 8 attack vs 4 defense simply because in one of them you have more chances of winning the battle (0.78125% chances you only roll 1 and lose by draw!!!). In the other you always have the probability that he rolls 4, then 3. Since there's no draw, you can consider this an instant 12.5% chances of losing .

If that's right then let's say P(b) is the chances of infantries rolling 4 or higher:
6 defense: P(b) = 3/6 = 1/2 = 50%
4 defense: P(b) = 1/4 = 25%

Now chances of P(b) happening again (2nd roll, infantries roll 4 or higher):
6 defense: P(b) * P(b) = 0.25 = 25%
4 defense: P(b) * P(b) = 0.125 = 12.5%

Assuming there isn't any weird mechanic in-game, helicopters should perform better than Tanks because it is harder for infantries to roll higher and kill them. I will do some tests in-game about this.

Skrivet av clovis1122, 01.09.2015 at 09:10

Skrivet av Kraigg, 01.09.2015 at 01:39

Actually comparison should be between helis and tanks given the range of helis 120$ vs 200$ for about same attacking power but helis cant take cities.... so today no incentive to buy helis...

The fact that helis can't take cities can be compared to the fact that Tanks can't fly oversea. Helis also have 1 more range than Tanks. The -2 def bonus though, some people thinks it equals to helis having 8 attack when it is actually better than that. It makes helicopters more effective against Infantries than Tanks, but I don't really know in which ratio.

2 attack vs 1 defense is better than 8 attack vs 4 defense simply because in one of them you have more chances of winning the battle (0.78125% chances you only roll 1 and lose by draw!!!). In the other you always have the probability that he rolls 4, then 3. Since there's no draw, you can consider this an instant 12.5% chances of losing .

If that's right then let's say P(b) is the chances of infantries rolling 4 or higher:
6 defense: P(b) = 3/6 = 1/2 = 50%
4 defense: P(b) = 1/4 = 25%

Now chances of P(b) happening again (2nd roll, infantries roll 4 or higher):
6 defense: P(b) * P(b) = 0.25 = 25%
4 defense: P(b) * P(b) = 0.125 = 12.5%

Assuming there isn't any weird mechanic in-game, helicopters should perform better than Tanks because it is harder for infantries to roll higher and kill them. I will do some tests in-game about this.

From my experience attacking with helis yield about similar results as with tanks (ie how many surviving units), but for a LOT more money (66.6% more), so as I said Cost is the issue here

Skrivet av Kraigg, 01.09.2015 at 09:17

From my experience attacking with helis yield about similar results as with tanks (ie how many surviving units), but for a LOT more money (66.6% more), so as I said Cost is the issue here

I also agree cost is an issue and even proposed a -30 cost for helis...

However, there's a reason about WHY helicopter should still cost 50 more than Tanks. The fact that they perform better in attack and have one extra range is what I think justify the Helicopter costing more than Tanks.

Agreed, 160-170 per helis seems good to me, similar to bombers, less range but more attacking power, gives it a purpose. Today it doesn't have any
Cheers

In my view u can think in terms of average:
Tanks have an average roll of 4.5 damage (equal chances of rollin any number divided by 8)
Helis have an average damage of 3.5
Inf have an average def vs tanks of 3.5, 2.5 vs helis
so u compare tanks (4.5 vs 3.5 = tank ratio is 1.285) and helis (3.5 vs 2.5 = helis ratio being 1.4).
So from a pure attacking power point of view I think helis are better yes, but not dramatically better, u will in most cases get same number of surviving units (unless big stacks battles) which is really what is the bottom line.

And then this troop becomes OP. Gets exploited, abused, raped, name it whatever you want to.
People will make threads about this troop and want to nerf it again, people who exploit it will cry about nerf and act like all is about them.
Then Laochra will get blammed for the nerf and people will hate Laochra, and he will become #1 #2 or #3 of MoTY 2015/2016.
And AW still stays shitty.

Looks like a bright future!

Skrivet av Waffel, 01.09.2015 at 09:39

People will make threads about this troop and want to nerf it again, people who exploit it will cry about nerf and act like all is about them.

Then I will go to every single of those threads to remember those players who were the ones who voted for a boost.

Case solved.

Skrivet av Waffel, 01.09.2015 at 09:39

And then this troop becomes OP. Gets exploited, abused, raped, name it whatever you want to.
People will make threads about this troop and want to nerf it again, people who exploit it will cry about nerf and act like all is about them.
Then Laochra will get blammed for the nerf and people will hate Laochra, and he will become #1 #2 or #3 of MoTY 2015/2016.
And AW still stays shitty.

Looks like a bright future!

Better something be useful, than worthless.
People thing SM is op, does that mean we should remove it? Or make it worhtless?

Skrivet av Waffel, 01.09.2015 at 09:39

And then this troop becomes OP. Gets exploited, abused, raped, name it whatever you want to.
People will make threads about this troop and want to nerf it again, people who exploit it will cry about nerf and act like all is about them.
Then Laochra will get blammed for the nerf and people will hate Laochra, and he will become #1 #2 or #3 of MoTY 2015/2016.
And AW still stays shitty.

Looks like a bright future!

I personnaly couldnt care less about boosting helis, even at 160$ I would probably barely ever use them... However the situation today is we have unit that is not used at all by the players (please tell me last time u saw someone not DS using helis). So in my view if we can make a little change that makes it usable in SOME RARE occasions we should do it.
last bit about helis as transport, carrying marines if attack of heli is lower than the marine's is pointless as ur marine will die first and u still cannot take the city...
I oppose helis carrying anything , even in DS u end up using ATs...

Skrivet av Kraigg, 01.09.2015 at 13:43

Skrivet av Waffel, 01.09.2015 at 09:39

And then this troop becomes OP. Gets exploited, abused, raped, name it whatever you want to.
People will make threads about this troop and want to nerf it again, people who exploit it will cry about nerf and act like all is about them.
Then Laochra will get blammed for the nerf and people will hate Laochra, and he will become #1 #2 or #3 of MoTY 2015/2016.
And AW still stays shitty.

Looks like a bright future!

I personnaly couldnt care less about boosting helis, even at 160$ I would probably barely ever use them... However the situation today is we have unit that is not used at all by the players (please tell me last time u saw someone not DS using helis). So in my view if we can make a little change that makes it usable in SOME RARE occasions we should do it.
last bit about helis as transport, carrying marines if attack of heli is lower than the marine's is pointless as ur marine will die first and u still cannot take the city...
I oppose helis carrying anything , even in DS u end up using ATs...

Well I do agree on that part. But boosting the attack or deffense of the unit would make it to op. But I think giving helis the option to capture cities would make them more useful and probably more used, since they can transport marines and helis are strong units. Maybe the range of heli's could be improved too.

Skrivet av Waffel, 02.09.2015 at 12:55

Well I do agree on that part. But boosting the attack or deffense of the unit would make it to op. But I think giving helis the option to capture cities would make them more useful and probably more used, since they can transport marines and helis are strong units. Maybe the range of heli's could be improved too.

i dont even.. waffel do i need to explain why allowing helis to capture cities is a horrible horrible idea?

.
I liked the idea someone proposed of making Helis a cheap kind of transport, a bit like a land submarine. just for militia and marines, think could be the attacking unit it is with a capacity of 2 for these units on all strats (3 for ds would also increase range for ds)

Skrivet av Khal.eesi, 02.09.2015 at 13:40

Skrivet av Waffel, 02.09.2015 at 12:55

Well I do agree on that part. But boosting the attack or deffense of the unit would make it to op. But I think giving helis the option to capture cities would make them more useful and probably more used, since they can transport marines and helis are strong units. Maybe the range of heli's could be improved too.

i dont even.. waffel do i need to explain why allowing helis to capture cities is a horrible horrible idea?

yes pls :?

Helicopters should be stealth units

^ BAN HIM FOR BUMPING ON OLD THREADS. OMG.

Necro...

I like this idea, if you make units similar in cost but different capabilities, it would the game more situation instead of spam single unit into oblivion.

Ideally, we should try to move many unpopular strats into quantity strats because that is the type of gameplay the current game rewards.

Skrivet av Cthulhu, 22.05.2016 at 15:29

I like this idea, if you make units similar in cost but different capabilities, it would the game more situation instead of spam single unit into oblivion.

Ideally, we should try to move many unpopular strats into quantity strats because that is the type of gameplay the current game rewards.

No. Not again. Hasn't this community already suffered enough from unbalanced strats..